Vanessa Fox is [Almost, in a Philosophical Sense, Somewhat] Wrong
Vanessa Fox has been in the world of current real world SEO for about two months and questions Rand Fishkin and his vast experience of actually working as an SEO.
I hope this is a link bait ploy of some type, if not Vanessa has made a goof here.
I have an enormous amount of respect for Vanessa, but frankly, she lacks any current real world SEO experience. She has not made the hard decisions that accompany our trade. She does not know the sweat, terror, or agony of having to make actual important decisions based on the limited information that her former employer provides.
Rand Fishkin, on the other hand has, and has done so for years. Day in day out, he has sweated, sacrificed and built his name and reputation successfully on his ability to navigate the mirky waters of SEO.
I really appreciate her input on the quiz, I told her so on her blog.
But it is shitty of her to title her post that or anything that labels the SEOmoz quiz as “completely wrong”.
She was a Google employee until two months ago, not an SEO.
I actually feel bad about this.
Vanessa if this a link ploy of some type, please email me. If it isn’t, please don’t cause I am pissed at the moment.
Update: My point is that as a recent Google employee I feel it irresponsible and disrespectful to Rand to use that title. It is not bad she wrote an opinion, I respect her opinion and I am glad she wrote it, I just wish it were more respectful and tactful in it’s execution.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
I dunno Pat, on this one I’m with Vanessa.
Statements in her post such as:
“But why is this quiz so wrong? Too many of the questions go beyond the science and into the art of SEO, where things are fluid and changing and open to interpretation. The quiz is more accurately a test of how much of your personal SEO philosophy matches that of SEOmoz.”… are 100% correct in my opinion.
I quote that in answer to your statement of:
“I have an enormous amount of respect for Vanessa, but frankly, she lacks any current real world SEO experience. She has not made the hard decisions that accompany our trade. She does not know the sweat, terror, or agony of having to make actual important decisions based on the limited information that her former employer provides.”
Perhaps she “lacks” “current real world SEO experience”. That doesn’t change the fact that I still agree 100% with every single word of her post.
However, I know that you are disagreeing with the title (as stressed in your update) and not the actual “meat” of the post.
It’s a tough call I suppose when it involves someone that you are personally friends with. I mean, I’ve never met Rand, and as such my initial reaction was “You’re over-reacting” (said with all due respect of course). But that fact is, if it was a personal friend of mine (such as Rand is to you), I suspect that my reaction would be different.
That said, perhaps this allows me to offer a slightly more objective view here… and to me, Vanessa is 100% qualified to use that title.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Hah. Just noticed how many times I used “100%”. Rambling commenter.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Hah. Just noticed how many times I used “100%”. Burgo = rambling commenter.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:04 am
hi, burgo thanks for commenting. everyone involved are big boys and girls. The odd thing is that i agree with vanessa on most of her points.
I just found the way she spun it on sphinn and her title as hurtful, I still think that. Just like I know some of my titles have been crap and hurtful. I in no way lose respect for Vanessa over this.
It is out of my respect for her that I say my opinion. Very few people get my honest opinion. She apparently is one of them.
thanks for putting your opinion down, i appreciate it.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:20 am
*** But it is shitty of her to title her post that or anything that labels the SEOmoz quiz as “completely wrong”. ***
Maybe Vanessa is rapidly learning the value of controversial titles for link baiting purposes.
I agree with most of what Vanessa wrote. However, you also have to realise that in cyberspace no-one sees you smile or frown… so you can’t really project any emotion on to the choice of title with a hope of guessing correctly.
I already commented about the quiz content elsewhere…
September 12th, 2007 at 12:31 am
I have mixed feelings about this, but respect for both of you in the fact that you can express your own feelings in a somewhat professional manner.
I think Vanessa’s points are good, I agree with you that the title could have been a little better but if it helps I’m not sure it will affect SEOmoz negatively in anyway, nor any of the staff members.
It’s good that you got your thoughts out there Pat, and i respect you for remaining calm.
Just subscribed to your feed
September 12th, 2007 at 12:37 am
gismd - thanks for your comments on all fronts, i have seen all your comments, they rock as usual.
glenn - sweet! thanks for suscribing
[private thoughts] I must remember not to tell anyone the way me rand and vanessa planned this all out.[end private thoughts]
September 12th, 2007 at 12:42 am
I have to say that Vanessa is pretty spot on in my opinion.
As far as Vanessa’s title, if SEOmoz can bait with a quiz why can’t she bait a little back?
September 12th, 2007 at 1:01 am
Good point Jeremy, and what effective link bait is was!
September 12th, 2007 at 3:57 am
Pat - first off, I’ve got to give you mad props for being such a big fan, and rabid defender. I owe you, like, ten cupcakes and a beer (or is that ten beers and a cupcake). That said…
Vanessa’s a close friend and someone who CERTAINLY knows more about this stuff, at least in the academic sense than I do. Remember that Vanessa’s role at Google meant she got to peek into not only the ranking factors, but the habits of the crawlers, the habits of websites and exactly what made each tick. Vanessa’s corrected me plenty of times in the past and I hope she does so again in the future.
The only thing I would note is that her title “completely wrong” when she only disagreed with maybe 10% of the questions (a little less) is a bit “linkbaity.” But hey, as someone noted above, if we can do linkbait with our quiz, why can’t Vanessa do linkbait to respond to it.
I’ll be working to clean up the questions she mentioned (many just need to be phrased more carefully) tonight.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Rand, I’ll take the beers
I am just hoping to see a title like “why patrick sexton is wrong about vanessa fox being wrong about seomoz being wrong”
not for the link, just so I could respond to it with an even longer title.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Hey Pat,
You get my vote purely because of your passion on the issue - this is one of the few topics I haven’t seen you crack a joke about which indicates how serious you are about it.
As a side-note I also have to say how impressed I am with the professionalism and respect shown through-out the comments (on your blog, Vanessa’s and the SEOmoz Quiz post)… sure there are some people pointing-out what they agree/disagree with but there’s been minimal unproductive responses (like “yeah the quiz sucks” ).
Anyways… I agree with a lot of your points, a lot of Vanessa’s points… and a lot of the comments. Keep up the great work - you’ve won yourself another blog subscriber
September 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Vanessa is not just a former Google employee. She is the former Webmaster Tools Project Manager. I doubt that many professional SEOs (even in a lengthy career) will ever be privy to the sheer amount site related data that she had access to. Plus she is mis-attributed in support of a question.
I think Vanessa is unquestionably the most appropriately credentialed person to point out technical errors in the quiz’s questions.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Correction: Vanessa was Product Manager of Webmaster Central
September 12th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Inflate, I agree with you there, Vanessa is a great person to do it, and all her points were correct. I agreed with them. I know her history well at Google, I have no argument that she is the person to clear up a quiz. My point is that she doesn’t have experience as an SEO.
Would you create a title that would do this to the search results of your friend? Or what about the way that affects potential users of SEOmoz?
She would feel differently if Zillows competitors had a few titles is the results that said “Zillow is installing badware onto their visitors websites”
But in the end, the real reason I don’t like it is because people are trying to learn online, and she has muddied this up instead of cleared it up with such an asinine title.
The quiz is technically correct now and Rand has cleared up the relatively few (6) items Vanessa mentioned. So now, our situation is a nice quiz that is termed as “completely wrong” by a person known to represent Google. Just seems dumb.
All of this is soooo yesterday
September 12th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Thanks Sitemost, I appreciate it
September 12th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Rand, a “bit” linkbaity? Dude, the title was intended entirely to be linkbait. It’s way too over the top for anyone to take seriously, one hopes.
…I have, however, edited the title, although as a linkbait master, that may cause you to be disappointed in me.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Vanessa, hello. Thanks for commenting,
I do hope you realize that I am a stupid, self absorbed, drunk and crappy poet, who really shouldn’t be taken very seriously.